Invincible Innovation

Your Future Copywriter is an AI? With Adi Mazor Kario of Invincible Innovation - Featuring Lately CEO Kate Bradley Chernis

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Speaker 1: (00:02)

Hey everyone. Today we're gonna talk about marketing, social copywriting, and you will imagine the future that we will use AI to do all of that. Welcome to Invincible Innovation Live show. I am so glad that you're here. I'm a z OCA product innovation and value creation expert, and I'll be your post. And I have a very, very special guest with me. Hi, Kate.

Speaker 2: (00:24)

Hello. Hello. How are you?

Speaker 1: (00:26)

I'm good. I'm so happy that you're here. Kate. Kate Bradley Churns is the, is the co-founder and CEO of lately. Kate, uh, as we said, she is coo of lately, says that a lately is an AI that learns which word will get you the most engagement and turn video, audio, and text into dozen of social post containing those words. Wow, that sounds really interesting. Now you like what to talk. We're live on LinkedIn, YouTube and Facebook. And you're so invited to join the discussion and ask questions. Now we can start. You know, I had a few talks about marketing and it seems like it's going and each time and getting more and more complicated. So could you tell us what are the challenges that brands have when they face marketing, and why is it so hard?

Speaker 2: (01:20)

Yeah, why? You know, I mean, the, what's, here's what's really interesting, Adi is the challenges brands have are the same no matter what size company it is, small, medium, or large. This has been surprising us for years. I used to, I worked on a Walmart project a long time ago, and I was amazed that they were asking the same questions as like a, a mom and pop, you know, small business and questions can be around cadence, for example, how often should I publish on Twitter? This is a big one. Everybody's really frustrated by, or what hashtags to use, um, these kind of riddles. I think they're elusive because the, the questions we wrestle with is what do I say and how do I know it's working? And part of that definition is what is working mean right now with social media. It's pretty simple.

Speaker 2: (02:19)

Click or share. Those are the objectives. So if you know that's the case, you're gonna back into everything you're doing around those two things. So I'll drop a couple of, um, like a couple of hot tips if you, if you don't mind around that. Sure. . So if, if your objectives are click or share as a small brand, it's harder to get the click because people don't trust you yet. There's one exception and that is how to content because it's very easy to, it's, it's a trick if the question is how to, the answer is behind the click. Right? That's the trick. So that's a good one. But on the share part, the trick is to think about ego people share because they get credit for what you've said, what they're sharing, right? So you want to make them look good. That's what you're thinking of doing.

Speaker 2: (03:10)

And when you're writing social media posts around like, how, how can I make, give somebody else the props for this idea? It's kind of like, you know, when you were in college and someone shared a new record with you, and then you shared the record record with someone else, and now you're the cool tastemaker, Right? It's the same idea. Yeah. So those are pretty easy things to kind of think about if you break it down very simply. The problem I think is people don't break it down very simply. They get marketers especially get so caught up in, in the numbers and KPIs that they don't even know what they mean to be honest. Right. And yeah, when you're stuck in that matrix of spreadsheets, let's be honest, um, you're forgetting the basics. And the basics are words, what words work,

Speaker 1: (03:59)

Right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think it, it's, it's getting complicated. We have so many options and, and everybody's fighting for the attention of the end users or the end customers. And, and it's very hard to, to get this attention. So, and you don't want to go to the extreme. So it's, it's so challenging all the time.

Speaker 2: (04:23)

Yeah. You know, I've been testing a lot on LinkedIn to see what cuts through the noise, and some of it is about algorithms of course, but here's what I've been finding. Um, so general negative ideas trend very well. So anytime you are complaining about something mm-hmm. people love misery .

Speaker 1: (04:47)

Yeah. It's like all that tension is going there directly. Like we're we wired to get that, Like if something is wrong,

Speaker 2: (04:55)

Wow, isn't that interesting? And the fact that the algorithms are tailored to that is kind of a little sick, to be honest, but yeah, it is. So that's one, it's

Speaker 1: (05:05)

Strengthening this very human trait, making it more prominent for sure.

Speaker 2: (05:12)

Exactly. Um, and then I've, I've noticed that any mention of God trends high, so

Speaker 1: (05:20)


Speaker 2: (05:21)

Religion, God. Yep. Isn't that interesting?

Speaker 1: (05:24)

Very. Because like in on LinkedIn, it's, it's really surprising for me that you're saying that Yeah, I thought it's less, it's less relevant, but I'm wrong. Apparently.

Speaker 2: (05:34)

Who knew? I, I did, I just did some tests to see, um, the other thing is of course, short is always good, so the shorter the better. Right? Um, and I've tried, uh, I've been experimenting, especially with, with content that has no attachments. So no links, no, um, video, no image. And that also starts to trend and pretty quickly, um, I don't know why ,

Speaker 1: (06:04)

Which is really strange because they usually say that you need something visual in order to get the attention. And it is not only text, it's visual and the right visual would do this

Speaker 2: (06:15)

Like trend. I think it's the algorithms again. I mean, you know, what's, what is a little bit silly about LinkedIn is, Oh, the other thing I've been testing is personal content, um, versus business content, right? So it absolutely boosts personal, non, non-work related stuff up, which is like, what is the point, right? We're all here for the same reason, , you know? Yeah. Um, and I don't, I don't understand why that is. So, and LinkedIn is the space that I play in, you know, the most. It's not, I do, I play on Twitter and Instagram as well, but, but it's more my forte. So it's interesting just to experiment and watch. For me, I'm both building a personal brand as well as a company brand. Um, so, you know, that's two different kinds of messaging, right? And I would encourage anyone to do that as well, especially non CEOs, because chances are you're going to go to another job someday, right? Yeah. And you take your, God, I'm gonna sound old, but you take your Rolodex with you, you take your network Rolodex,

Speaker 1: (07:20)

, that's old

Speaker 2: (07:23)

Remember those things. God, Yeah. Um, but that, that's your value, especially if you're in sales, right? I mean, you wanna be able to do, to brag and say, I'm a social beast and I've got 10,000 connections on LinkedIn or whatever. It's Yeah.

Speaker 1: (07:37)

Yeah. I think that, that we're living in this age that you need to be aware all the time, what is the persona that you're selling and who is like this person that somebody's watching or seeing through these social media, uh, platforms. And it's so strange because in the past we didn't have like two, we had only ourselves. Now we have like one virtual one wondering thing, and we need to manage both of them all the time. Mm. And it's like endless. And marketing is endless. And, and I think that Yeah. In the past I thought about marketing as something that in addition to what you're doing, you're doing this. And it seems that in the last like five, 10 years, it's getting more and more of the attentions of brands or of companies that I work with, especially if they're b2c, for sure. Mm-hmm. , it's really important for the success.

Speaker 2: (08:29)

Yeah. I read this, um, I'm gonna have to try to remember these numbers now, but it's, it's overwhelming. Uh, I'll try to pull them up in the background. Um, the onus now on individuals to do their own marketing within a company has flipped. So you'll see this rise now in employee advocacy, for example, right? Social selling, everyone is expected to talk the talk on social media about their company. Makes sense. I mean, if you are, if you're uncomfortable doing that, you probably should think about getting a different job , you know? Yeah. Don't you wanna cheer your company on? I mean, I hope so. You spend all your time there. Um, but, but it, it's, the demand from on, from the company is on the employees is, is skyrocketing. And then the demand of software to include artificial intelligence to help companies do exactly this, um, is, is now on the rise as well.

Speaker 2: (09:28)

It's basically the next, you know, four years we're, we're seeing all this growth. So we're interested in that. Of course. I mean, this is right in the wheelhouse of lately. And, and you know, what we do, One thing you asked in the beginning I wanted to circle back to by the way, was, um, what are, what the challenges, you know, what are the challenges? And one of the challenges of artificial intelligence in particular that I've found and I've heard from other entrepreneurs as well, is we're selling against magic adi, right? People really, they have this misunderstanding of what artificial artificial intelligence is in the movies and what it is in reality, you know? And, um, it's not what the movies are ,

Speaker 1: (10:14)

It's not . It's not, it's not. So tell me what, what, how do you see it? By the way, we got especially what you're saying, Katie Jordan.

Speaker 2: (10:25)

Oh, yeah. Hey, Katie. She's, she's the best. She gets it totally right? I mean,

Speaker 1: (10:30)

She says AI plus humans for the win for

Speaker 2: (10:33)

The win. Yeah. It's so important. Um, yeah. Like we've seen that, So marketers are lazy, hate to say it, but we are self included. I mean, people, everybody's busy. We just want it done and we wanna move on. I get it. With a marketing, unfortunately, you never, you don't want to take the work out. There always has to be a human involved doing some of the work. And part of that is because what makes marketing work, literally what, when it, when it lights up and goes viral, et cetera, it's because of usually some kind of visceral, intangible, indescribable thing happens, right? That can only be made by a human only. So for lately, we actually require that a human participates in trains the artificial intelligence, because the difference in ROI is automation versus artificial intelligence results. So I'll give you an example. We have a sales conversion of 98% trial to sale.

Speaker 2: (11:50)

Wow. Let me say that again in case anyone missed it. 98%. Yeah. . Wow. And that's because we only use lately to market lately. So we're dog fooding our own product, but we're dog fooding our own mindset, which is pairing a human with artificial intelligence so that there's a collaborative, um, effort and then the collaborative result as well. Right. It is really hard to get people to want to do that, we find, because the, they're the lazy factor, you know, they wanna push a button and walk away and, um, you know, I'm working on, I'm working on inventing magic Adi, it just,

Speaker 1: (12:27)

Yeah. Good luck, . It sounds so complicated. And Kristen, she is, she, she, she really agrees with you and she said, so true. You still need humans. And, and most people, when you're saying AI would do it, thinking about, uh, I'm not going to find any copywriters in the world. It's all gonna be machines writing to themselves and, and answering themselves or something like that.

Speaker 2: (12:50)

No. Yeah. It won't be. I mean, just like, as we all found here in, in Covid land, right? Um, about humans needing each other in person and socially, Yes, work from home is great. I've been working from home for 15 years now, and I do love it. But that again, that, that intangible, that the gen quo, um, about actually being in a room with other people, you can't explain it. It's beautiful, right? It's necessary. And we're, we're social animals. We can't, we literally cannot live without that. Right? So I think that, um, you know, the, the pendulum always swings back. Yeah.

Speaker 1: (13:35)


Speaker 2: (13:36)

And I think once with artificial intelligence in anyways, people are, people are gonna kind of be less, um, mystified by it, that there will be a democratization and a demystification, and then they'll start getting comfortable with the idea that, um, it takes two to tango.

Speaker 1: (13:53)

Yeah. Yeah. And Emma agrees with you too, Emma or any Johnson, the tangible human elements, what can make marketing genius. So thank you for Emma and Kristen and Kay, Katie, everyone that is joining us. And, you know, the connection between AI and the human being is something that we're always like thinking in the back of my mind, Like in, I think in the last two, three years, you hear so much about AI and the potential of ai. So could you tell us about AI with marketing and creativity, and how do you see that future?

Speaker 2: (14:30)

Right. It's a good question. You know, with the creativity, I've seen a lot of those, um, like AI imaging and all that, and it's not my space. So I don't really know anything about how that works. But I do know about the writing component and artificial intelligence, writing fiction is very different than artificial intelligence writing, um, social media copy. Now, I guess one could say that some marketing is fiction, I suppose. But, um, you know, I think for us, what we've, what we're looking for is a feedback loop. This is what all engineers are looking for, right? What are the patterns that can be replicated? So creativity is a hard one to replicate, because the whole point of creativity is to do something wildly different every time. Right? Right. Now, writing a social media post, there are patterns within, because a bra, all brand voices have patterns and words and strings of words and different phrases.

Speaker 2: (15:33)

We can literally look at the feedback loop of what's worked previously and learn from it. Right? It's right there. Yeah. So it's, the math is a gimme. I think that's the thing that people forget, a d is that there is math . Yeah. More or less. Here, it's a numbers, you know? Yeah. Um, yeah. So, I mean, I wouldn't, I'm not, I'm not worried about the life of creativity and computers talking to themselves, and I mean, it just seems a little Armageddon, or, or it just seems a little over, um, overwrought. I mean, you know, everyone's worried about Elon Musk. Yes. That guy is a little crazy, no doubt about it. But Twitter has a board. Twitter has a board.

Speaker 1: (16:23)


Speaker 2: (16:23)

The board is there to make sure that no one comes in and wax it all up, right?

Speaker 1: (16:28)

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: (16:29)

So you just have to remember that there's

Speaker 1: (16:32)


Speaker 2: (16:32)

Fail safes in place for, um, to prevent AI takeover.

Speaker 1: (16:39)

Yeah, for sure. I think that that's when we're thinking about these, um, capabilities, and you see that, like when we're writing officially what you have in, um, what's the name of the company that rewrites your texts, uh, has lots of, like, all YouTube is theirs. I know. How much money do they invest in their marketing, these small videos before you start to see the video? You know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2: (17:06)

Is it Jasper? I don't know if that's who it

Speaker 1: (17:08)

Is. No, it's something, Wow.

Speaker 2: (17:11)

I don't know. I don't know. ,

Speaker 1: (17:12)

You see, And it didn't help because I don't remember the name. Yeah,

Speaker 2: (17:15)

Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm not interested in also, I mean, he, I don't wanna replace humans, right? That's like mm-hmm. , I mean, hello, Kill the streets.

Speaker 1: (17:27)

Grammarly. That's

Speaker 2: (17:28)

The, Oh, Grammarly, Grammarly. Oh, well, Grammarly, Yeah, they correct your, your poor grammar, which is great. And I, I don't think there's artificial intelligence in, in Grammarly, actually, that I know of. Um, but again, it's patterns, right? I mean, it's the same way when, you know, Siri is, is pulling up full words with you as you're texting, because most humans will follow this word with this word, Right? That's kinda traditional. Um, I find that a bit infuriating, by the way, because what it's doing is it is presuming that we speak in, in cliche. And in fact, if you watch any live quote, live television show, all they all speak in cliches, it's just a string of cliches. Yeah. And it's a bummer that children are learning that. I was thinking about, um, uh, I don't know if this is related or I'm just tangenting tangenting a little bit, but I grew up with Bugs Bunny. Okay. You know, who I'm sure is is offensive to somebody now, right?

Speaker 1: (18:35)

. Yeah,

Speaker 2: (18:36)

. But what a shame. I mean, all that classical music, that was a part of my life growing up, I learned from that show, you know? And, um, there's no, uh, the time that they used to take for, for what the character would say, Right. No cliches there. And then in fact, he was poking fun of cliches. And then even the time it would take to draw the cartoon, there were like multiple pages per each movement, where now comics or cartoons are just like a couple of screens in the, you know, it's interesting, like, to, to see if that pendulum will be swinging back as well. Um, I think I'm noticing it, right. I'm noticing that, that we, we are taking the easy way out with emojis, with Siri recommending words to us, with the way we draw our cartoons with electronic music that no one has to play. Um, but then at the same time, you see things like, food went this way for a long time, right? It was way over into what's easy, what's fast, whatever. And now we're way over in this other side where it's, where I live, it's $45 for any meal, and everything was picked out back like that moment, you know, Yeah. Someone's farming right to it. So I'm not worried about this stuff because it, it always comes back, you know, in one way or the other.

Speaker 1: (20:03)

Yeah. What you're saying is like, we fear that something human or something which is spontaneous or natural in the sense is missing. So we're taking it back to that direction. Um, and you mentioned Siri. Uh, one of the things that I've done in the past is to design, uh, voice, voice design.

Speaker 2: (20:22)

Oh, yeah. For,

Speaker 1: (20:23)

Yeah. Cool. And, and I ha I was giving talks about voice design, the future of AI and voice and all that. And it's very obvious that the kids who are talking to Seery or to the Google Home or, or whatever they are, um, getting these patterns of speaking a way of speaking to someone who would not react.

Speaker 2: (20:47)


Speaker 1: (20:48)

And sometimes they do use it in order to, to curse and in order to speak in a certain way that they would not do to a person. That's true. And we need to be very aware of it, that they're learning from that. And it's one directional. Right. So, although that they will get the answer, but it's one direction in a relationship. And, and I think the same thing that you're talking about, like, about food and about cartoons is, is that we want something that might be more complex, but more human, and it's more natural for us to do that. That's

Speaker 2: (21:21)

Right. Yeah. You know, it's so funny, I, I have some friends, these, my, my friends', 12 year old daughters, Lola and Tilly, and when they're talking, they'll do things like this. So they're actually, that's an emoji, the crying emoji. So they're working in emojis to the, when they're actually talking to you. Isn't that fascinating? Yeah.

Speaker 1: (21:40)

You know,

Speaker 2: (21:41)

It's strange. I know, right?

Speaker 1: (21:44)

Don't you feel old when they're doing it?

Speaker 2: (21:46)

I do. I do. I feel really old, you know? Yeah. I am.

Speaker 1: (21:50)

It's like my daughter, she explained to me that, that in many cases you need to do that when you're, when you're, Yeah. It's like, why would they do that?

Speaker 2: (21:58)

Right? , But I love the, the, the evolvement, Is that the word of of language specifically? Right? So there're the meshing of the two. That's cool. Mm-hmm. . Right? Right. Um, by the way, I use Drag Dragon naturally speaking, um, full time as voice activated software for computing. So I'm so aware of voice and sound and how it's working. That dyna whole dynamic. What's been interesting for me, I've been doing, I've been using this for I think, 10 years now. Um, so I'm totally hands free. I don't, I don't type at all. And, um, Dragon doesn't make any spelling errors, Right. There's no spelling errors in my world. Yeah. But it does make, like, sound errors, so it'll confuse something that sounds like something else. For example, um, if I say VCs, it might mishear it as feces

Speaker 1: (22:59)

, which is not good.

Speaker 2: (23:01)

No. I'm like, don't send, don't send that email.

Speaker 1: (23:05)

It's good that you're verifying that this is what you meant. Right,

Speaker 2: (23:09)

. Yeah. And it's interesting too, cuz I, I also, I might say something like, blah, blah, blah, and, um, it's done this a few times. It heard it as the character from Arrested Development, Bob, blah, blah guy, you know, write that out. So it's, it, it's, it's listening to, it's, you know, they feed, they feed the brain cultural information. So it has like these reference points, which is, you know, pretty, pretty funny to me. But, um, even this idea of, you know, nuance through that I'm, I'm involved in every day is trying, is talking, working with a computer that's trying to understand me and, and guess how I talk. And, and, um, you know, it's, it's, it's does an okay job, but it, it doesn't, it can't replace a smile, you know?

Speaker 1: (24:06)

Yeah. And, and you just make and a smile with the VC's example, .

Speaker 2: (24:11)

Oh yeah. That's a good one.

Speaker 1: (24:13)

That's a good one. So I wanna go and just, you could tell me about being an entrepreneur and starting an AI startup and what are the main challenges with this very complex technology and how do you overcome?

Speaker 2: (24:27)

You know, the biggest challenge is me. Right? It's getting like my head, how, how much am I gonna get? Let the negativity get to me or, or not, right? And so the first thing is to surround yourself with a great team. And my team is the best. I can't live without them. I'm really super lucky. They're all incredible, very caring people. Very caring humans, and very smart also. And they, they wanna win this game and they're willing to suffer. I mean, it's not an easy ride at lately. It sure is fun, but if you wanted to work somewhere where it's very calm and the hours are chill and you have tons of benefits, it's not my company, you know, . Um, and certainly I do. And esp, I'm 48, so like, what it takes for me to survive every day is more than when I was 20.

Speaker 2: (25:25)

You know? I mean, I need more sleep and I do need acupuncture or massage, or I need to go for walks and like, just make sure my mental space is really kind of with it. Um, I think that I up totally obsess about lately. I'm, I know that the answers are always right in front of me and that's a good sign of an entrepreneur, right? Cuz I'm scrappy, I know I'm gonna get it done. But the obsessive quality, I mean, I, I'll wake up in the middle of the night and just think about an email that I've written or need to write and be thinking over and over in my head exactly what I'm gonna say or why I'm gonna say it. Or if like, like yesterday, this, um, chief product officer at a very famous company, No, it was the m and a guy took a meeting with us, got on the call, and didn't know anything about us, wasn't prepared, had moved the meeting four times. I could see the reflection of his glasses, of him reading my website as I'm talking, right? Oh, yep. Not

Speaker 1: (26:35)

Good . No, not good.

Speaker 2: (26:37)

No. And he's kind of also doing that, like who's got the biggest balls at this table kind of thing with me, you know, and I, god, ad like, I, I should've stopped the conversation right in the beginning and said, This is going nowhere. We both know it. Let's just get off the call here. But I didn't, I was polite and I let him frankly abuse me for half an hour, you know, and waste my time. And as I'm saying this and it's coming outta my mouth, like there's a lot of ne negativity there right now. That's not the worst thing that's happened to me. There's been way worse. And, and that's not the first time that's happened either. It's happened a bunch of times. Yeah. You know, and it happens to women more than it does men for sure. Yeah. But that great, it does great on you. I mean, it's just a constant avalanche of, of. Right? And so picking my head up and smiling and believing that I'm doing the right thing, that takes some work that is hard. I am not very good at it. I rely on a lot of other people to see the glass half full.

Speaker 1: (27:52)

Yeah. I have to say that I'm, I'm, you know, I, I hear what you're saying and it really touches my heart because I'm working with entrepreneur and I, it's usually males, not females. And I, and I totally appreciate what, what you're doing as an for sure as a female one. And I think that sometimes it, it demands so much more from our mental, um, understanding of the situation or emotional capabilities much more than what people think about the cognitive capabilities of an entrepreneur. And most people would say they need to be very smart and sharp and need to think about, uh, the details of everything and know everything. And and usually this is not the case because most entrepreneurs, they have that covered. Yeah. What they really, what they really need is the capability to stay calm and, and trust your instincts and know where you're going.

Speaker 1: (28:48)

And all the, the other things around surrounding you is so much background noise mm-hmm. that you need to know how to handle all the time. And it's so hard. It is so hard. Most people, what, what they think about they, they're thinking about, I know about how much money does, you know, mask or Jeff business has, but they're not thinking about all the No. And you can't and you shouldn't. And it's not the right thing that they heard, maybe only in the beginning, and now they're hearing that class of course. But it's like, it seems that we have this, um, it's like a, an image of what is an entrepreneur mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . And it's totally, totally not related to the life of the, of someone who's doing that. Right. .

Speaker 2: (29:37)

It's true. They, and it's because we as humans, like to science everything to death. Right. We like to put it all in nice, neat boxes and, and, and check them off. And thanks to Shark Tank, they've done that with entrepreneurism. Um, so that there's an bit of an epidemic. I was just talking to, uh, someone who runs an accelerator in Austin, Texas about this, where investors, venture capitalists in particular, um, are, have so swung that way where they're, they're only looking for what they've heard checks the boxes as opposed to taking a little time to, um, recognize the human element right. Behind that they're actually missing out more than the, the average on the deals they should have invested in. Right. And, and also damaging, um, doing damage to the entrepreneur in, in the process by asking as nine questions . Right. And cuz cuz your instinct is to answer the question or to figure out how to answer the question.

Speaker 1: (30:50)


Speaker 2: (30:51)

Right. It's one of the, one of the hardest things I had to learn. And one of the best things I had to learn is which questions do you answer and which questions don't you answer? And in even better, how do you tailor the conversation to make sure that they're asking the questions you want them to ask. Right. That's, that's the real mastery of these conversations. Um, the, there's some telltale signs you start to learn. I call them time wasters of, of what those questions are. And it's not to say that you shouldn't have a dialogue with people who are going to invest in you. That's not what I'm saying. Right. Um, but venture capitalists I've found very often like to throw their weight around and, and act a ask questions, guides. They think it's the thing that, that they should be asking rather than genuinely wanting to understand the company as a whole.

Speaker 1: (31:43)

Yeah. I think it's related to listening. Yeah. I think that listening is so underrated in general, especially in men in VCs, . Wow. It's like, it's a very, very manly world if we're thinking about entrepreneurship in general. And VCs very, very specifically, uh, I think it's like 98% or something like that, men. And when you're thinking about what a VC is doing is actually risking money and want to win money, uh, in that case over the talent and, and time and efforts of people who want to make it. And, and you see that sometimes in the interaction

Speaker 2: (32:27)

You do, the, the conversation often feels so one sided because they think we need them, but in fact, , you need me. Right. Money is always, uh, there's always money. Someone taught me that and it's true. There is always money and I can find it one way or the other. Right. And it doesn't have to be, Now there's like lots of other, um, there's venture debt programs, there's a million other ways to fund your company.

Speaker 1: (32:56)

Yeah. Cross hosing, crowd

Speaker 2: (32:58)

Sourcing. That's right. Yeah. And sometimes you don't actually need money, you just need some grit, which I've got plenty of mm-hmm. . Um, but that always, I had to learn that as well is that this is because if you, if you enter the conversation in, in the mindset of need, then you're never gonna walk out with a win. You're putting yourself lesser than that person

Speaker 1: (33:20)

There. You're right. You're

Speaker 2: (33:22)

Right. So that's not great.

Speaker 1: (33:24)

This is something that I learned like way back when I was very young in my profession and I was a young professional, you know, with, I didn't know much about being a business owner and about being what I'm, whatever I'm doing. And I remember that. I learned that if I come to a meeting and I have lots of projects and I have lots of things to do, I always win the deal. Hmm. And if I come to the meeting, a marketing meeting and I want, I want the, I want the business, I need it, I will not get it

Speaker 2: (33:59)

That funny. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Cause there's something you put out around that Maybe it's a confidence.

Speaker 1: (34:03)

Yeah. It, it's something that if you, you're sure you don't need it. So it, it, they, it's like the energy or not telling them, I don't need your business. I don't want this project. But what you're saying is I'm, I know what I'm worth and I don't need it, you know, to, to get along. Like, if you want my talent and my expertise, that's fine, but that's it.

Speaker 2: (34:25)


Speaker 1: (34:25)

And it's very important to have this energy when you're coming, even if you do need this investment. And even if you do want something from them, if you know that you can handle it without them, you have like two more points just at the beginning when you're coming there. Yes. And another thing is very important is to understand what is, like what is the game that you're playing, you know? Mm-hmm. mm-hmm. . And, and I think that sometimes women are not that good in understanding the game, so they could learn it, but usually they come like in a delay. They're starting to learn it when they're like grownups and kids. Yes. You know, my 16 years old, he knows lots of things about competition and about rivalry and about getting like, what you want much more than me. And he's much younger than me.

Speaker 2: (35:15)

Interesting. Yeah. It's just part of hi, part of the culture.

Speaker 1: (35:18)

It's part of the way that he relates. You know, he, I will tell you something that that comes to my mind. He went to play basketball with friends mm-hmm. . And from the beginning they said, who, the one who's going to lose, he's gonna pay money for the one who is gonna win. But that was the easy part. Okay. The, the big thing is that he will take a picture of the winner stepping on the one who lost. Oh my god. He will be his profile picture for two weeks . Right.

Speaker 2: (35:48)

So good

Speaker 1: (35:52)

About the

Speaker 2: (35:52)


Speaker 1: (35:53)

The ego. I never thought about it. Like, how did you come up with this plan? You know? Yeah. And I don't know any girl 16 years old that would've think about like, That's

Speaker 2: (36:04)

Right. This occur, it wouldn't occur. Oh my god. Yeah. That's amazing.

Speaker 1: (36:08)

Yeah. And now when he's, he would be a grownup, it will not be weird for him to have this, you know, what you're calling, like, I call the shots, you call the shots, you know, this ranking, it'll be obvious for him the ranking because he was stepped on .

Speaker 2: (36:24)

Yes. Right. Oh my god. You feel that too? Like when you walk into a room, like I, I would go to a VC meeting and like not sit at the head of the table because I thought it would be rude. It's not my table. Right. That's like me coming over to your house for dinner and I'm right. Yeah. But that's a check against me actually. And especially if they sit at the head of the table. Right, Right.

Speaker 1: (36:47)

Like, Right.

Speaker 2: (36:48)

This is that this is that game you're saying it's, it's, um, someone was, I think there's a ted talk around this where, um, both, both female VCs and male VCs often ask, um, negative questions to female entrepreneurs.

Speaker 1: (37:06)


Speaker 2: (37:06)

The opposite for men. For example, if it's a man, they will say, How are you going to grow the company? And if it's a woman, they will say, How are you going to prevent churn? Okay. Right.

Speaker 1: (37:17)

I heard, I I think I read that.

Speaker 2: (37:20)

Yeah. So the trick is to hear those questions, but answer them with the growth answer no matter what happens. Right. So if someone said to me, How are you gonna prevent churn? I'll say, I'll be growing the company by, you know, to $5 million in three years by these ways. Right. Yeah. And that's a, that's a weird head trick,

Speaker 1: (37:39)

You know? Yeah.

Speaker 2: (37:41)

It doesn't make any sense. And, and no one tells you these, these things either, Adi, you have to learn them on the way. There's not a handbook that says this is how you play the game.

Speaker 1: (37:50)

Right. Yeah. And, and that's what I'm saying, that the way that young men are relating to each other is the way to train them. You know, like when you're mm-hmm. when you have like two, um, small lions like puppies, lions, right? Yeah. They have this rough play all the time. So they, they can handle the fight think for later.

Speaker 2: (38:11)


Speaker 1: (38:12)

Yeah. So they know how to do it much better than, than, you know, when you're thinking about 15, 16, 17 years old girls, they would be collaborating. They would gossip, they would do things together and they would not step on each other. Whoa. Not virgin enough. Weird

Speaker 2: (38:32)

. Oh my God. I wouldn't let each other do that. I mean, like, no girl would like be willing to

Speaker 1: (38:39)

Yeah. Why, why would you? Yeah. And and I think that it's, it's a small story, but I, I don't think it's that small. I think it's the way that they handle the word and the way they understand, you know, like men in general, they see hierarchy, they see this pyramid, and women usually see a net when they're coming into a situation which is social. And when you're thinking about being the best or getting more money or winning, um, as a fund, winning more of the great deals that will come and be a unicorn. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's a very specific hierarchy of, of the situation, which is clearly not a collaboration. That's right. It, it's not a net and it's not equal. It's like they're winning and losing very, very obviously.

Speaker 2: (39:26)

Yes. Um, so, uh, on that note, uh, um, a male entrepreneur that I love and respect was helping me with something the other day. And, and he said, I, I wrote this down on a sticky note on my desk here. He said, uh, the more you explain yourself, the less confident you sound

Speaker 1: (39:46)

. Yeah, I totally understand that. I totally understand that.

Speaker 2: (39:51)

Like, and that is such a woman thing. Every woman I know goes deep into the explanation, cuz it's interesting. We think the story matters how we got here. It all is relevant. Right. But yeah.

Speaker 1: (40:04)

But I think that we have to admit that if you would say the same word as a, as a woman, and the same word as as a male entrepreneur, you would sound and be related to differently.

Speaker 2: (40:16)

Yeah. You're a. .

Speaker 1: (40:19)

Yeah. And, and a lot, if you're a if you're a male, you, you, you know the details, you know how, how to go and, and go about and really create something, you're practical. I know exactly what would be the, the way that they would, uh, see that, but they would see it differently. Uh, and it's a challenge to, to relate to that. So what do I wanna say? How do I wanna sound, how would they see me mm-hmm. , what is the right thing to do? Would it, if somebody, let's say a man would say, um, I'm not sure, I would check it sounds very humble and trustful and I don't know, what would they think if you would say, I don't know,

Speaker 2: (41:02)

I would check right? Honesty. Yeah, Yeah,

Speaker 1: (41:05)

Yeah. It's, it's, it's a question. So we talked about the bad part of being an entrepreneur. So what is your favorite advice of being an entrepreneur?

Speaker 2: (41:13)

Uh, my favorite part is, um, I think a lot about the movie Modern Times with Charlie Chaplin. And at the time that was commentary on, um, the factories, right? So they were building cars in this movie, and the commentary was, there's no reward because you never get to see a final product if you're just a cog in the, in the machine. Right. It's the opposite for me because we can very quickly see what customers like or don't like, fix it, iterate, launch, and then do it again. And so it is so much fun for, for me to do that in part because the, the problem solving is what I like to do, but it's also because of my team. I love working, Jason is one of my co-founders, and this is the, working on the product is something we do very well together. So there's a collaborative kind of effort and it's rewarding.

Speaker 2: (42:07)

Like you're, you're doing something together, the conversation, Oh, I got the idea, or, uh, or we're just, um, we call it vomit. So we just vomit out all of our bad ideas because someone's gonna find the right one in a, in there somewhere. Right. And that, um, that, that knowledge and that, I'm gonna call it the sort of liberation of genuinely being able to throw out terrible ideas with someone else, knowing that you're not gonna be judged for it in any way, but that both people have the same end goal, which is to find an answer, solve the problem. Right. I find that incredibly rewarding and, um, fun.

Speaker 1: (42:48)

Yeah. I, I totally understand what you were saying. And I think that another thing that, that we could see is the creation of something that it was only an idea and now it's like helping people do something that they need. It is so substantially like, Yeah, I've done that. That's my creation and it's so much, um, Yeah, you're proud and, and content by, but what you've done. Yeah. I've done that. Right. And, and, and I think that that is so important to really enjoy you. You got these talents and skills and experience in your life. And just to put them like in the world, put them out in the world and see what, what is like, what is the, the possibilities is so, you know, this, this is life not just waiting for things to happen. Right?

Speaker 2: (43:40)

Yeah. It's very human defining. Right. It, it really makes me feel as though, like, I, I really believe that the, not the not becoming perfect, but the aspiration to, to perfect is a human endeavor. It's why we get up every day, do it better, get, get better. Mm-hmm. something better, build a better AI platform, um, get, have a better body, uh, eat, eat better, have a better relationship with your husband, whatever it is. Like, just do it better. And that, that's the stuff that makes life, life as you're saying. Right. It's very simple. Maybe a little corny or cliche , when you're not aspiring for, then you're, um, you know, that's, that's deep depression, right? Or worse.

Speaker 1: (44:32)

Yeah. It's like stagnation. It's not moving, it's like starting to die. Yeah. More or less.

Speaker 2: (44:39)

Yeah. And that's what I know, by the way, always something, when something's wrong or something needs to change is when I can feel that stagnation happening. I'm a Capricorn and so I hate change so much. Of course, Right? But, but I know it's the necessary thing to flip the switch. And, and, um, like we just had one of our key team members, Lauren, who we've loved so much, she's been with us for four years. So she, um, left the company to go to, um, a much more relaxing job, and more stable and better benefits and all that, and great for her. And, you know, it's always painful to rip the bandaid off, but then it, there's also a flashlight that goes on and you can see suddenly all these things that you need to improve there, there they are. And you wouldn't, maybe you wouldn't have uncovered that otherwise if this change, this painful change didn't happen. Right? Yeah.

Speaker 1: (45:28)

It's like, I think it's Leonard Cohen, I'm not sure about, but it's Leonard's coin song. Like there's cracking everything. This is how the light comes in. I

Speaker 2: (45:37)

Think you're right. That,

Speaker 1: (45:38)


Speaker 2: (45:38)

I think Chris, Chris Row, Are you out there? Is that, is she right? He's one of

Speaker 1: (45:43)

. Oh, correct me for I'm wrong. Go to Google and see if I, if it's Leonard Point. So we could talk for hours, but I wanna

Speaker 2: (45:50)

Love talking. You're so insightful and smart. It's, it's refreshing too. I hope we're helping somebody Adi,

Speaker 1: (45:57)

Because I, I really do. I think that Kristin enjoys us. She says that we are the best and she enjoys our conversation. So at least one and two of us is three. So it's a good beginning. That's

Speaker 2: (46:09)

Good. Yeah. Yeah. We gotta make it contagious, right? I mean the Sure, like I said, the the tricks, the tricks that you can't learn are the only, you have to pick them up by either jumping in the fire yourself or someone telling you. But even the more people tell you it's not, the timing might not be right for you to hear it, you know? So it's so funny, the things that I actually learned years ago that I'm now able to be like, Oh my God, . Yeah, ,

Speaker 1: (46:44)

I understand what you're saying. And, and when it, when it happens, it's, it sounds trivial, it sounds like it doesn't matter, but sometimes you go back to it and you say, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Like it takes time. Yeah, it takes time. Okay. So what do you think people need to know about ai? So we, we said that they're afraid of it. So what do they really, in, in leaders are thinking about, Yeah, we need an AI in whatever what you're doing. What do you think they need to know?

Speaker 2: (47:16)

I think so don't fall for trends, right? You don't need AI just because everyone's talking about it the same way. Suddenly everyone needed a QR code back in the day, Right? And I was like, Why, why do you tell me why? So first, you know, don't get sucked into the hype. Um, I think listening to what your customers are asking for, if you're shopping for ai, make sure that you're, you're purchasing an, an artificial intelligence solution that actually solves the problem again. And so it's not just some problem, you think it's actually what they're asking for. Um, I think experimenting is important. A d right? I mean, whether it's AI or anything else, you wanna be able to try it and make sure it's, you know, the right fit for what you're doing. I think going into any AI purchase specifically with an open mind, um, all AI is a startup right now. It's a new thing that's happening across the world. So like ours is learning constantly, right? We make mistakes all the time. It's part of what we do. And our customers are willing to be a part of this ride with us, for example, right? And the ones we're able to serve them extra super well because, um, you know, we have that, we have that dialogue going on. You know, now that's not a game for everybody. You might not want to go through the bugs , right? I,

Speaker 1: (48:43)

I think that if you wanna be successful, you should really know how to listen and to talk to people and, and to, it's not only, it's not only listening is what do you do with what you hear? Yeah. So, so sometimes it could just make you sad because you cannot fix it. And that's it. , right? . But sometimes you could think about it, What is the meaning of this request? What do they really need? Um, how can we make this better? Maybe not in this version, maybe in the next version, maybe, Right? Like, just to keep in mind what is important all the time and, and, um, and focusing on, on these people that you're serving in the end is so much more important than focusing on the technology. Many people would think about the technology most of the time, and it's not enough. It, it is important, but it's not enough to do that.

Speaker 2: (49:35)

It happens to us all the time. We're constantly balancing what exactly what you said, what, what the customer wants, which customer wants it, Um, what, what our investors want, what we want, you know, what, what has to take priority and why. And having that dialogue as a team is super important. And knowing, you know, what advisors to pull in as well, sometimes the customer is not right, Right. It is the case. Or sometimes you don't have the resources to address a really painful problem, so you have no choice but to address another one that may not be quite as painful, but it's what you can do in this moment. So I've been so grateful to have people around me help me understand what, what is the priority, who, who to listen to, you know, who not to listen to. And it's, it's very frustrating because as, as we all like to joke, like every I have there, every house is on fire, and I can only put a little water on one of them today.

Speaker 1: (50:38)

. Yeah. I know. I, to to understand what you're saying, , it's like, I think that people just imagine what it, what it's like to have a, a startup or have a company, a product company, and they imagine it's like, uh, yeah, we're thinking what should we do? And we're just doing it. We're just, we could hire another, uh, developer, We could change the plans, we could change the application to do this and that all the time. And, and it's doesn't work this way. You're prioritizing all the time and thinking what is more important? What would give us more benefits? What would be the future decision that would be the right one? And, and it's really hard to do product in general. Well, yeah. And especially when you're a startup, and as you said that you have these investors which are major in that, at that stage afterwards, maybe they would be more relaxed, but right now they're very important and they're trying to, um, help you with their understanding of the market, of their experience and what they ever they're looking for. And, and it's challenging for sure

Speaker 2: (51:45)

It is. And sometimes you have to say no to them too. Like, you have to ignore their, everybody wants to give you advice, you know, and you can't take all of it. And sometimes you just have to delete the email and not respond, you know? And, um, it's making these decisions constantly all day long is, is that's the game. That's this particular game, right? That you're, that I'm involved in in any case. And I, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, by the way, , you know,

Speaker 1: (52:17)

What do you mean it, I know like a young woman.

Speaker 2: (52:21)

I wouldn't recommend this life. I mean, uh, it's, it's, it's, you have, I it's a very specific temperament, you know, that I happen to have. Um, it's crazy. You know, what I'm doing is crazy. So clearly I'm addicted to the high highs and the low lows. There's something about the ups and downs that my nature enjoys, but it's, the stress is in, it's just incredible. It's incredible amount of stress, um, from all manner of external forces, but then yourself also, right? I mean, we're still here, we've been doing this for seven years and um, a lot of people would've just closed up shop now, right? Um, I think that, I can see why if you're much younger, it's probably a little bit of an easier game because the tenacity required is just like, where do you get the energy? You know, It's like, I can see why you would have a baby in your twenties and not in your forties like that. , I don't have a baby, but it sounds like really hard to me, you know,

Speaker 1: (53:31)

. Yeah. Um,

Speaker 2: (53:33)

And I'm glad to support, support anybody, you know, I'm glad to support women or, or any underdog in their endeavor. But I would say before you do this, think really hard. This is not a glamorous life. Add, like no way, . It's just not

Speaker 1: (53:50)

. So what do you think entrepreneurs need to know when they're to have a successful company? What is like the number one tip you would give them?

Speaker 2: (53:59)

Um, how much glass are you willing to eat? And for how long? Really think about the answer to that question. How much pain are you willing to be in and put willing to put other people in? And for how long? Because that's the real truth of what this game is. That's a huge part of it. And it hap it'll happen again and again and again and again. You think the worst has happened? Not yet.

Speaker 1: (54:27)

Not yet. the worst is yet to come.

Speaker 2: (54:30)

Yeah. Sorry for the negativity

Speaker 1: (54:33)


Speaker 2: (54:33)

That's the truth. So

Speaker 1: (54:35)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I, it's like what you're saying is so, um, it's something that most entrepreneurs would like to say, but most of them would not say it this explicitly and clearly. And it's very brave of you to say it like, you know, like in front of everyone and say, Yeah, that that's, that's what it is. It's not what you think it is. It, it's, it's really, this is how it is. Okay. So we could talk for ours, but we really it need to, We could do it. Oh, again. Um, where could people hear more about and, and contact you?

Speaker 2: (55:15)

Oh, thank you so much, Adi. Um, so I am lately AI kailey on Twitter. That's a great place to hang out with me. Of course, is where we are online. Um, please tell me that you met me with Adi and um, you know, get, get ready to be converted cuz we have that high conversion rate. So if you , if you take a spin at lately just warning, um, and, and a human will probably contact you. Oh my God, .

Speaker 1: (55:42)

Yeah. So first I wanna thank you Kate and I really enjoyed our talk and then we will surely do it again because it's so fun. I hope so. Okay. And, and thank you for what you're saying and for what you're doing and I wish you lots and lots of luck. Lots of luck. And see all of you James makers out there. Thank you for joining us and I'll see you next week with another innovative, insightful talk. See ya.

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